Wonderful conversation and the book intrigues me as well as Suzanne Segal's book which was mentioned. Thank you for conducting and sharing this interview. I noticed you asked the anonymous author if he read about others' experiences to help make sense of his own. It brought to mind, Jan Frazier's book When Fear Falls Away, an account of a sudden awakening. She is/was a creative writing teacher and writer. After her sudden shift she found resonance and recognition in reading about the experiences of others' enlightenment that helped her integrate what was happening. I love that cat vomit makes an appearance in her book. She has written others too. I thought you and your readers might enjoy her books.
It is hard to find words to describe the state of formlessness, the place where I dissolves into all, where our individual boundaries merge into the pulsation of existence, of Life, of This. Mystics throughout history have attempted it,some, like Blake, Rumi, Hafiz and the great beings who have graced our planet and illumined the path for others, manage to convey the experience through their words, images or presence. I thank you, Ellie and your nameless friend, for this clear, humble and true account of touching the space where all becomes one. I too have touched that space, and just knowing it is there, and catching glimpses through meditation, nature, music and silence fills my life with wonder and joy. The way home indeed. I love that you are exploring this topic from so many different view points.
And wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if everybody touched this reality at least once in their lives, and love and kindness, tolerance and awe-inspired humility became the norm for us humans.
Yes! That would be the most wonderful world. I’m not sure how likely it is in my lifetime, given all the barriers to that kind of experience — but I do have absolute confidence that at least more people are having this kind experience, even if not all people. I can tell from your writing that your own experiences of it have been deep and transformative. Thank you as ever for your thoughtful and lovely comment. xx
This was great. Touched a lot of bases. But love only got a mention in the last few lines. As I get older I feel that, philosophising aside, love and the consequence of loving, is the supreme challenge. As a long term meditator, reader of traditions and contemporary artist, I still feel at a loss when faced with the reality that there seems no answer to why I will never see those that I love again, when I die. When I think of my daughter this thought is unbearable. Religion tries to offer comfort in the idea of a personal god who cares for each of us, but really, isn't it increasingly hard to countenance that? Grand abstractions, like cosmic consciousness, or "nothingness" don't cut it when you contemplate an infinity of love's loss and separation in death. The best I can hope for is the strength to face death ... with fingers crossed.
Oof, Nick, what a bruisingly beautiful or beautifully bruising thought. I think you’re right that love is the supreme challenge, or at least the whole core of the effort. I think this is why I’m so drawn to imaginal practice and the imaginal mode: because it is, ultimately, the mode of love, or the eye of the heart, as Cynthia Bourgeault would put it. Have you read Imaginal Love by Tom Cheetham? Might be of interest. Similarly, in fact, Cynthia Bourgeault’s Eye of the Heart, which speaks a little to love after death.
Thanks so much for this comment, which has sparked a lot for me.
Wow. So hard to put this stuff into words, but what a good job he has done. It augments the feeling I have had this week that things are shifting again, more and deeper. Perhaps as he says the more pain, the more the possibity of the numinous occurs. It's hard the picture the human world in much more pain, so maybe the time is ripe. Bless
Thanks so much for reading, Jay, and for your as-ever insightful thoughts. So intriguing that you’ve had a sense of a shift even in the past week. Hard to avoid feeling that we’re in a moment of incredible pressure and change right now, isn’t it?
Yes Ellie, it certainly is. My own imaginal world is stepping up the contact again. I have worked for years with the Four Directions as a way of creating sacred space with my clients at the opening of our sessions together. During those years the symbol itself took the opportunity of teaching me about its deeper meaning.The other day in meditation it took me on a deeper journey into the Earth it is symbolic of, showing me how much we need a story change before it popped me back on my chair. So I guess I’ll be writing about that in my own publication this week unless something else drops by. 🙃 Bless
Wow! This sounds incredibly powerful. And sorry about the delay — I’m trying to find the balance between Substacking and making time for the more reflective, private work. The perennial elusive balance. But always so thrilled to hear from you and fascinated by the steps of your journey. I’m off to read your latest now. x
Such an important read. It offers hope. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and his answers , which very much is enabling us to understand or perhaps even better, feel supported on our own journeys. As someone who has experienced this loving connection to "all," I wanted to share that my book, Guidance from the Universe is being published this January and I hope it does as well as this article in supporting those seeking, an ability to have their own numinous moment/life/experience.
Thank you so much for this, Jill. Such a thrill, always, to meet others who are having experiences like this. I’ll make a note to seek out your book in January. I’m really glad you enjoyed this post — I’ll let my friend know you found it supportive. x
I’ve been saving this piece for a moment where I can really give it my attention, and I’m so glad I’ve finally got to it. I felt so excited reading it. My only comparable experience to this was during a magic mushroom trip, which reached a peak where I felt I’d finally stepped outside language and the self, kind of like my skull had opened up and let me out into everything else. It has definitely changed me, mostly in the sense that I now know this is possible, and that my sense of being separate from everything is an illusion that can be transcended. The thing is I only know one way of transcending it, and I can’t just be taking psychedelics all the time 😂 In fact I anticipated this during the trip, and asked the mushrooms (or God, or the universe, or some higher part of my own brain, whatever it was) how I could access that place/truth again in future, without the aid of drugs. The answer that came to me was ‘through music’. So that is one path, but I feel like my life now is sort of orientated towards the idea of ‘opening myself up’, towards cultivating states of mind that will make that sort of opening more likely, even if only for a tiny glimpse. Most of my efforts involve nature and mindfulness, as well as music, but this (and your post about lectio divina) have inspired me to read William Blake too. Not that I think this is the sort of experience that can be chased down, but creating the conditions in which it is more likely to emerge - sort of softening my own boundaries in the hope they become permeable - has definitely become a priority for me over the course of the last year.
Kate, what a beautiful post! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I’ve had similar things happen during plant-assisted psychedelic moments, and I know what you mean about needing other routes. For me, I started having strange out-of-time, or maybe deepening-into-time moments as a kid, but didn’t understand what they were. Then had some plant-medicine moments. And it was a few years after that that the more organic moments of altered consciousness and melted self started to happen. I think the psychedelics definitely helped.
Have you ever read Cynthia Bourgeault? Her book Eye of the Heart might interest you. It’s mostly about imaginal practice and the imaginal realm, but she gives some guidance as to how to soften yourself so that you’re receptive to expanded realities, as you describe.
Ah, so interesting that you'd tried psychedelics before those experiences. I guess perhaps it helps just to have that readiness in your mind and an understanding that an altered consciousness is possible. I thought it was really interesting that your friend had been reading about theories of consciousness before his experience too, as if the curiosity and belief is the theoretical work that makes the actual experience possible, or at least more likely. I haven't read Cynthia Bourgeault but I've just been looking her up. Wow, she's written a lot of books. I will check out Eye of the Heart - thanks for the tip!
Yes! I do definitely think that having traced that pathway in some form or other helps, because it shows you that the landscape keeps going, if you see what I mean — that there isn’t a drop-off at the edge of individual consciousness. Looking forward to reading more about your explorations. x
Hi Val! This is the publisher. I just set it up so you can order the book in Canada. I’m sorry shipping is so expensive. It makes no sense to me that crossing an imaginary line should make transporting a small package cost three time more! But this is the world we live in. I’ll have a ebook up on our site in a few days if you want to wait until then…
Thanks for your response! Just ordered and it worked perfectly! I appreciate the offering of an ebook but wish to have the original. The experience that the book recounts feels essential and familiar; strangely so, in that my experience is similar yet rarely spoken about. This book, and, importantly, Ellie's work, feel like the taproot of an origin story. Looking forward to more!
Fascinating read, about a fascinating experience and perspective. My own work has circled around outlining a view of reality that I see so many similarities to in what is written here. If it would be at all interesting to "Anonymous" or yourself, my attempt at describing this view is introduced here: https://tmfow.substack.com/p/introduction
Ooh, thank you for sharing this — I’m looking forward to reading it. And thank you for your generous read. So lovely to know that this piece found you and hit a spot.
A quick google:-) "In the ninth century, the Buddhist sage Lin Chi told a monk, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." He meant that those who think they've found all the answers in any religion need to start questioning."
I see someone has already replied to this, but it’s a Zen saying, sometimes thought of as a koan. I asked the friend I interviewed in this piece, and he says he thinks it originated with Linji Yixuan, a Zen master in the ninth century.
Wonderful conversation and the book intrigues me as well as Suzanne Segal's book which was mentioned. Thank you for conducting and sharing this interview. I noticed you asked the anonymous author if he read about others' experiences to help make sense of his own. It brought to mind, Jan Frazier's book When Fear Falls Away, an account of a sudden awakening. She is/was a creative writing teacher and writer. After her sudden shift she found resonance and recognition in reading about the experiences of others' enlightenment that helped her integrate what was happening. I love that cat vomit makes an appearance in her book. She has written others too. I thought you and your readers might enjoy her books.
Ooh, thank you so much — that sounds like a great recommendation. So glad you enjoyed this chat. And thank you for dropping by! x
It is hard to find words to describe the state of formlessness, the place where I dissolves into all, where our individual boundaries merge into the pulsation of existence, of Life, of This. Mystics throughout history have attempted it,some, like Blake, Rumi, Hafiz and the great beings who have graced our planet and illumined the path for others, manage to convey the experience through their words, images or presence. I thank you, Ellie and your nameless friend, for this clear, humble and true account of touching the space where all becomes one. I too have touched that space, and just knowing it is there, and catching glimpses through meditation, nature, music and silence fills my life with wonder and joy. The way home indeed. I love that you are exploring this topic from so many different view points.
And wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if everybody touched this reality at least once in their lives, and love and kindness, tolerance and awe-inspired humility became the norm for us humans.
Yes! That would be the most wonderful world. I’m not sure how likely it is in my lifetime, given all the barriers to that kind of experience — but I do have absolute confidence that at least more people are having this kind experience, even if not all people. I can tell from your writing that your own experiences of it have been deep and transformative. Thank you as ever for your thoughtful and lovely comment. xx
This was great. Touched a lot of bases. But love only got a mention in the last few lines. As I get older I feel that, philosophising aside, love and the consequence of loving, is the supreme challenge. As a long term meditator, reader of traditions and contemporary artist, I still feel at a loss when faced with the reality that there seems no answer to why I will never see those that I love again, when I die. When I think of my daughter this thought is unbearable. Religion tries to offer comfort in the idea of a personal god who cares for each of us, but really, isn't it increasingly hard to countenance that? Grand abstractions, like cosmic consciousness, or "nothingness" don't cut it when you contemplate an infinity of love's loss and separation in death. The best I can hope for is the strength to face death ... with fingers crossed.
Oof, Nick, what a bruisingly beautiful or beautifully bruising thought. I think you’re right that love is the supreme challenge, or at least the whole core of the effort. I think this is why I’m so drawn to imaginal practice and the imaginal mode: because it is, ultimately, the mode of love, or the eye of the heart, as Cynthia Bourgeault would put it. Have you read Imaginal Love by Tom Cheetham? Might be of interest. Similarly, in fact, Cynthia Bourgeault’s Eye of the Heart, which speaks a little to love after death.
Thanks so much for this comment, which has sparked a lot for me.
Wow. So hard to put this stuff into words, but what a good job he has done. It augments the feeling I have had this week that things are shifting again, more and deeper. Perhaps as he says the more pain, the more the possibity of the numinous occurs. It's hard the picture the human world in much more pain, so maybe the time is ripe. Bless
Thanks so much for reading, Jay, and for your as-ever insightful thoughts. So intriguing that you’ve had a sense of a shift even in the past week. Hard to avoid feeling that we’re in a moment of incredible pressure and change right now, isn’t it?
Yes Ellie, it certainly is. My own imaginal world is stepping up the contact again. I have worked for years with the Four Directions as a way of creating sacred space with my clients at the opening of our sessions together. During those years the symbol itself took the opportunity of teaching me about its deeper meaning.The other day in meditation it took me on a deeper journey into the Earth it is symbolic of, showing me how much we need a story change before it popped me back on my chair. So I guess I’ll be writing about that in my own publication this week unless something else drops by. 🙃 Bless
Wow! This sounds incredibly powerful. And sorry about the delay — I’m trying to find the balance between Substacking and making time for the more reflective, private work. The perennial elusive balance. But always so thrilled to hear from you and fascinated by the steps of your journey. I’m off to read your latest now. x
Such an important read. It offers hope. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and his answers , which very much is enabling us to understand or perhaps even better, feel supported on our own journeys. As someone who has experienced this loving connection to "all," I wanted to share that my book, Guidance from the Universe is being published this January and I hope it does as well as this article in supporting those seeking, an ability to have their own numinous moment/life/experience.
Thank you so much for this, Jill. Such a thrill, always, to meet others who are having experiences like this. I’ll make a note to seek out your book in January. I’m really glad you enjoyed this post — I’ll let my friend know you found it supportive. x
I’ve been saving this piece for a moment where I can really give it my attention, and I’m so glad I’ve finally got to it. I felt so excited reading it. My only comparable experience to this was during a magic mushroom trip, which reached a peak where I felt I’d finally stepped outside language and the self, kind of like my skull had opened up and let me out into everything else. It has definitely changed me, mostly in the sense that I now know this is possible, and that my sense of being separate from everything is an illusion that can be transcended. The thing is I only know one way of transcending it, and I can’t just be taking psychedelics all the time 😂 In fact I anticipated this during the trip, and asked the mushrooms (or God, or the universe, or some higher part of my own brain, whatever it was) how I could access that place/truth again in future, without the aid of drugs. The answer that came to me was ‘through music’. So that is one path, but I feel like my life now is sort of orientated towards the idea of ‘opening myself up’, towards cultivating states of mind that will make that sort of opening more likely, even if only for a tiny glimpse. Most of my efforts involve nature and mindfulness, as well as music, but this (and your post about lectio divina) have inspired me to read William Blake too. Not that I think this is the sort of experience that can be chased down, but creating the conditions in which it is more likely to emerge - sort of softening my own boundaries in the hope they become permeable - has definitely become a priority for me over the course of the last year.
Kate, what a beautiful post! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I’ve had similar things happen during plant-assisted psychedelic moments, and I know what you mean about needing other routes. For me, I started having strange out-of-time, or maybe deepening-into-time moments as a kid, but didn’t understand what they were. Then had some plant-medicine moments. And it was a few years after that that the more organic moments of altered consciousness and melted self started to happen. I think the psychedelics definitely helped.
Have you ever read Cynthia Bourgeault? Her book Eye of the Heart might interest you. It’s mostly about imaginal practice and the imaginal realm, but she gives some guidance as to how to soften yourself so that you’re receptive to expanded realities, as you describe.
Ah, so interesting that you'd tried psychedelics before those experiences. I guess perhaps it helps just to have that readiness in your mind and an understanding that an altered consciousness is possible. I thought it was really interesting that your friend had been reading about theories of consciousness before his experience too, as if the curiosity and belief is the theoretical work that makes the actual experience possible, or at least more likely. I haven't read Cynthia Bourgeault but I've just been looking her up. Wow, she's written a lot of books. I will check out Eye of the Heart - thanks for the tip!
Yes! I do definitely think that having traced that pathway in some form or other helps, because it shows you that the landscape keeps going, if you see what I mean — that there isn’t a drop-off at the edge of individual consciousness. Looking forward to reading more about your explorations. x
An excellent interview.
Thank you for reading!
Wondering: how can I get this book shipped to Canada, please? Quite fascinating ...and resonant. with thanks, Val
Hi Val! This is the publisher. I just set it up so you can order the book in Canada. I’m sorry shipping is so expensive. It makes no sense to me that crossing an imaginary line should make transporting a small package cost three time more! But this is the world we live in. I’ll have a ebook up on our site in a few days if you want to wait until then…
Thanks for your interest!
C
Thanks for your response! Just ordered and it worked perfectly! I appreciate the offering of an ebook but wish to have the original. The experience that the book recounts feels essential and familiar; strangely so, in that my experience is similar yet rarely spoken about. This book, and, importantly, Ellie's work, feel like the taproot of an origin story. Looking forward to more!
Love your work Ellie! How do I get the book in Canada, please?
Ah thanks Val! And great question — I’ll ask the publisher.
You wrote both sides.
Ha! I can assure you I didn’t, but you’re welcome to keep believing I did if you like. When you imagine this, please give me nice hair.
Fascinating read, about a fascinating experience and perspective. My own work has circled around outlining a view of reality that I see so many similarities to in what is written here. If it would be at all interesting to "Anonymous" or yourself, my attempt at describing this view is introduced here: https://tmfow.substack.com/p/introduction
Thanks so much for sharing and writing up this.
Ooh, thank you for sharing this — I’m looking forward to reading it. And thank you for your generous read. So lovely to know that this piece found you and hit a spot.
where is that saying from, that you should "kill buddha"? that is totaly wrong
but probably you should make shure, that he's really a buddha 😉
if it is a koan then i get it. thank you for looking that up
A quick google:-) "In the ninth century, the Buddhist sage Lin Chi told a monk, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." He meant that those who think they've found all the answers in any religion need to start questioning."
I see someone has already replied to this, but it’s a Zen saying, sometimes thought of as a koan. I asked the friend I interviewed in this piece, and he says he thinks it originated with Linji Yixuan, a Zen master in the ninth century.